Cultural Backlash: An Open Post

[causticus]

There were some interesting discussions on yesterday's Magic Monday post and on the past month's or so posts on the Ecosophia blog regarding the collapse of alternative spirituality in the West and a likely impending cultural backlash against decades of general rot and grubbiness that is decaying our civilization from within.

Some of us here in the US are afraid that a sudden cultural jolt in the other direction, away from leftism/progressivism, will result in any type of spirituality that doesn't fit a narrow, literalist Christian/Abrahamic format as being seen by the reaction mob as "part of the problem." Anything the people leading and directing this backlash deem to be adjacent to the aforementioned cultural rot will be lazily lumped together into one big, bad conspiracy against what they believe they are trying to save and preserve. This likely means anything occult/esoteric, overtly pagan, or too foreign will be included, with very little nuance. As we know, the moral collapse of both Neopaganism and the postmodern occult scene hasn't helped matters at all in this respect, especially in light of recent tragic events.

Anyway, I want to know what anyone else here thinks of this and anything in your own area (US or somewhere else) you have seen indicative of a new cultural direction that may or or may not involve the condemnation of the things I listed above (or anything else that comes to mind). Also, we could use this space to think up ideas on how to preserve and carry on various spiritual teachings and practices if/when an intolerant religious climate becomes reality.

This is an open post that will stay open for quite a long time.

Comments

[jprussell]

Thanks for hosting this!

I definitely share the concerns, though I'd place myself more at "keep an eye out for signs that this is happening" than "it's definitely coming, be ready for it."

In-person, I haven't really noticed much to indicate things going one way or the other, other than that any Neopagan/Wiccan or adjacent spaces I've observed definitely show signs of "fading fad" - fewer, older people, groups no longer meeting, et cetera. On the other hand, I haven't seen all that many signs of resurgent Christianity, but then, I run in fairly secular PMC circles, and despite living in Texas, I live in a big city, so I may not be seeing folks turning to a stronger emphasis on Christianity in their lives.

Where I do see the more (possibly) worrying trends is in online discourse, especially among right wing folks most disgusted with the way the culture has been going for the last [insert length of time you think since things started "going wrong"], some of whom seem to more often be pointing to the lack of Christian belief as where the problem came from and/or the presence of strong, widespread Christian belief as the necessary condition for fixing the problems. Luckily, not everyone who holds variations of these beliefs is hostile or belligerent about it - some are more like "your heart's in the right place, and you're on the right side, but you're mistaken to be doing it outside of the teachings and structure of the Church." The maybe reason for optimism that I see here is actually some of the spats we've been seeing on the extremely online right between "based pagans" and "Christ bros," though more accurately, it's the non-spat, more reasonable interactions that give me hope. To the degree these (admittedly) very online discussions are upstream of the wider cultural zeitgeist, having a tiny, but vocal, contingent of polytheists saying "hey guys, we're not all nihilistic materialist leftists" might be carving out some room in the mental geography of folks who want to see the culture change in a big way to accept that maybe there's room for some of the spiritual weirdos on the other side. At least I hope so.

If I had to put on my prognosticator hat, and I assumed that there's not much a few weirdos like us can do against larger cultural and political trends, I'd likely say the best possible outcome I can see in the near to medium term is something like Charles Haywood's "ecumenicalism light" - Christianity becomes more culturally and politically assertive, maybe even dominant, and it's openly and explicitly favored, but room is left for folks to have their own beliefs as long as they don't translate into activities seen as culturally corrosive. So, maybe it's a long time yet (if ever) before we have Heathen Holy Guilds hosting festivals and doling out charity in partnership with the local Church, but I'm hopeful that I'm not gonna get run out of town or worse for quietly worshipping in my own home.

I'll be interested to see what others think, though.

Cheers,
Jeff

[causticus]

Some great points here.

Really does make me wonder how unrepresentative of reality the various flavors of "extremely online right" really are. I'd wager that right wing Pagans, TradCaths, Orthobros, and Christian Nationalists are each well less than 1% of the US population. Self-identified Pagans as a whole likely aren't even 1%.

What is a little harder to gauge is the degree of representation of random "normie" internet comments, i.e. ordinary people blowing off steam in the comment sections on various social media platforms and older media sites. There I see a lot of generic Christian sentiments expressed.

I totally agree on that last part.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm also worried about what's going to happen for heterodox Christians like me, people who do believe in Jesus Christ and the Trinity but don't believe in the traditional mainstream Christian dogma about eternal heaven and eternal hell, the nature of God (omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent according to the mainstream tradition), original sin, et cetera.

[sanctuaryofroseandchalice]

I share your concern as well. If Occultists and non-Christians get targeted how soon do we see a return of anti-Catholicicism (and by extension Orthodoxy, high church Protestantism, Gnosticism, and non-Trinitarians)? How soon do we see anti-Masonry (and other fraternal orders) return as well?

[causticus]

Assuming any new "Satanic Panic" is something more than a regional phenomenon, you should be fine, granted you are not too ostentatious about publicly sharing your beliefs.

[(Anonymous)]

As a universalist, and as someone who is raised Christian, but more at home in polytheism, I do talk to other Christians and can share in some of the philosophy, but I always have to curb my tongue around certain issues. Many don't seem to notice at all, and some have thought I am Christian. It's a source of some anxiety for me because I have been somewhat public about my occultism online and in public-public in the past, but don't know if that will ever come back to me in a bad way.

I think a lot about hiding in plain sight.

Anonymous Anonymous

[sanctuaryofroseandchalice]

Greetings to all. Thank you to our host for opening this space for discussion on the subject.

I've been deeply concerned how recent events will impact the changing religious landscape and the possibility of a new "anticult" movement. in my county the Neopagan scene is small, but present, and unfortunately it leans to the left (I've learned to keep my trap shut whenever politics come up). If there are conservative, libertarian, or moderate Pagans and occultists in my area they're not in the local Neopagan scene as far as I can tell. There's going to be a monthly meetup tonight, so I'm going to see what the vibe currently is. There is some young blood, but most of the movers and shakers are Boomers and Gen X.

On a tangential note, I've noticed the local Goth scene is pretty Woke as well. Every time I attend the local Goth festival I frequently see groomer flags and Satanic sigils. Not a good sign of their survivability.

I don't know what the local Christian response has been to recent events. I live in a largely Hispanic area with an aging and moribund Anglo culture, and I know there's a couple of botanicas in town.

I am encouraged to see more traditionalist and conservative Pagans and occultists emerging on social media (although the folkish aspects aren't my cuppa, and I can do without the explicitly racist and antisemetic nonsense).

I've also been thinking of how to preserve alternative spirituality. Three things I'd like to do are these:
1) in the short term I'd like to start an ecumenical/interspiritual book club dedicated to Platonist, Pythagorean, and Hermetic spirituality, and gradually introduce lodge elements like simple quarter calls and representations of the elements present. This could serve as an outer court to a society dedicated to the Path of Return.
2) I would like to start a nonprofit dedicated to the conservation of rejected knowledge, which would include alternative spirituality in addition to practical skills. It would be modeled on groups like the Theosophical Society and Christian Science reading rooms.
3) as a Christopagan occultist who's spent years on and off in discernment towards ordination (previously with a mainstream church, now in the weird world of independent esoteric churches) and if I ever do become ordained I would like to open a ministry or parish to those of alternative beliefs and practices and provide them sanctuary and "respectable" cover. As long as they're comfortable with Christian symbolism and abide by a standard of magical ethics.

I'm just spitballing ideas and seeing what sticks. I could also be babbling. Thank you for hearing me out, I would appreciate any feedback. Have a wonderful weekend.

Sincerely,
Sanctuary of the Rose and Chalice.

[causticus]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

If you don't mind, please let us know about the vibe you picked up at that meeting. Though I have no recent experiences with IRL paganism, I'd venture to guess it's rather leftist and woke.

I don't know how representative online paganism is of paganism overall, but current day pagans who are most vocal about being pagans online (as you probably know already) tend to be either woke leftists or white nationalists/identitarians. There's a few who are moderates, libertarians, and conservatives but their voices tend to get drowned out by the former types. Unfortunately, most religion and spirituality these days has become a front for politics.

1. You're speaking my language here. I'd be very interested in a group like this!

2. Ditto on this as well.

3. I suspect the esoteric Christian churches and orgs will go the same way as Neopagan groups have gone, if they haven't already.

[sanctuaryofroseandchalice]

I've been thinking about how Pagans and Polytheists could "rebrand" themselves so that they come off as either silly or sinister. Just enough respectability to be left alone. These are some brief initial thoughts. For Witches drop the "Witch" label, the negative connotation (both historically and due to recent events) is not helping. Firstly, emphasize the "craft of the Wise" part of the Path more so than the "Witchy" part. I suppose Witchcraft could be rebranded as Wisecraft or Witcraft, but that implies individuals being called Wizards. That's too Harry Potter for my comfort, talk about not being taken seriously.

Greco-Roman polytheists and Heathens should ditch the togas and furs and leathers respectively. The classic white robes of the Druid revival may still work outside of the USA, but in America most folks associate white robes with a certain organization (you know who). Where does this leave us for ceremonial clothes? I say a post on twitter advocating a style of clothing from the 5th century common to both Germanics and late Classical Romans (if I find it again I'll share the link in the comment section). Laity could where business casual, or their "Sunday best." Even sharp looking vintage clothes would be an improvement.

That's all I have for now. Feedback is appreciated.

Sincerely,
Sanctuary of the Rose and Chalice

[slclaire]

Most of the US Druids that I know (and I am one) wear robe colors other than white, or if they do wear white, it's regular clothing styles that happen to be white. I'm an exception - I'm wearing my white robe in the photograph - but I took the sleeves off, leave the hood down, and wear it on top of street clothes to avoid drawing on the imagery of the group you referred to. I have been thinking about adding a purple coneflower design to my robe as it is my favorite flower and a source of inspiration; I'm bumping that plan up on the to-do list. In the meantime I'll do my rituals in street clothes as I usually do outside of the Druid holy days.

Iolo Morganwg wrote that depending on a Druid Revivalist's specialty, green, blue, or white robes were worn. That may have been something he made up, or it could have been a bit of authentic lore that he found, but it does provide for options within the Druid Revival tradition. AODA does not dictate robe color or style; it's up to one's personal Awen or inspiration.

I don't have anything to add to what the rest of you have brought up so far, but the issue is certainly on my mind.

[(Anonymous)]

Someone on the Ecosophia blog mentioned rebranding as cottage core. That makes sense to me. Kitchen witches, etc. Lots of right leaning Christians are getting into herbalism and such now... could be some crossover appeal as they really start to learn from plants.

Anonymous Anonymous

[causticus]

I totally agree with needing to drop the "Witch" label. It was puerile and purposefully-transgressive from the getgo and those attitudes have only gotten more obnoxious with time. Not only that but "Wicca" and "witchcraft" as something to identify one's organization as needs to go as well. Neopaganism in general has always been caught up in the transgressive aesthetic and in function (POSWID) has been way more about being anti-Christian than it's been about promoting and practicing a positive spirituality of its own (there's been exceptions of course, but the general pattern holds strong). It won't be too long until most ordinary people associate "Witch" with "Satanist." Self-identified "Witches" have done no shortage of stupid things to make this conceptual association plausible.

On what to wear, I know that the more serious of Heathen groups have embraced the "Sunday best" type attire for lay participants. For Druids or any other sort of polytheist cleric, the simple white alb robe works just find and doesn't stand out as anything remotely weird or nefarious. I agree that wearing a toga or bear pelt or whatever is totally stupid and and immediate sign that one's religion/spirituality is unserious. The cosplay nonsense has to go.

[rhydlyd]

Greetings Causticus,
Thank you for replying to my post on John Greer’s Magic Monday.
I have an extensive background with Christianity and a bad case of preacher’s kid syndrome, so that’s why I ended up studying Druidry with the AODA. I hung around with a different order some years back, but I left because they were turning to the same post-hippie leftism that killed quite a few Protestant congregations (including the one that was foisted on me as a child). As a result of being in exactly the bracket harmed most by Obama’s and Biden’s policies, I (despite my education) work at a big-box DIY in a Red corner of the Rust Belt. As a result, I’m in constant contact with the people the Left™ and lefty neopagans fear the most. Also, I’m well out as a Druid, which gets me a few funny looks, but generally gets me put in most people’s good guy column. The qualifier, “Yeah, I’m a Green Wizard. The lefties really hate us!” is a handy conversation starter. And true. So – the short version is… there’s no mob coming for the neopagans. Most of them will head for mainstream Protestant sects as the economy dictates and as the fads that created the tacky, plastic neopagans hit history’s recycling center.
Thank you very much for allowing my 2d worth in your forum. I’d be happy to expand or explain if you like, and I’m looking forward to reading what evolves here.
Rhydlyd

[causticus]

Welcome Rhydlyd, thanks for stopping by!

First off, thanks for the data points on your experiences. I live in the Rust Belt to, but more in a major urban area, where prog lefties and old-style machine Democrats rule the roost. I can only imagine that people like me, i.e. right-of-center with weird/eclectic spiritual beliefs, are quite rare in these parts.

I like the term Green Wizard a lot. I'm quite found of the Druid Revival tradition myself, and it's influenced my own eclectic views quite a bit. I actually call this synthesis "Green Hermeticism", which may or may not be a helpful label moving forward. The way I see it, once the Neopagan and pop-occult paradigms fully fade out, calling oneself a Druid might just get you pegged as a weirdo or oddball. Personally, "Druid" as a self-identifier is a bit too LARPy for my own tastes, so Green Wizard or Green Hermeticist it is ;) I've commented before on how I'd really like to see the DR tradition survive, though I think its survival will be under the auspices of some other movement or organization, perhaps as one among several spiritual path options.

I actually think it's likely the majority of people who were involved with Neopaganism at its peak, c. late 1980s - late 2000s, have already likely moved onto other things. Perhaps some of the remainders will revert back to some sort of Protestantism, as you suggest.

Hermetics, Transcendentalism and Twelve Step Groups

[(Anonymous)]

Coincidentally, I got a note from someone I am close to yesterday saying along the lines that: "I think I need to learn about hermetics. I have the feeling you already know about that" and asked for my input. This person is LGBTQ+, generally on the left, and has flirted with pop-culture paganism, but not in a serious way. Likes fantasy novels and SF and going to Rennaisance fairs (I hope the people playing dress up at those don't get harmed... because I actually see a lot of possible value in RenFairs and they are one of the few surviving places of carnie culture). This sudden interest in Hermetics gives me hope. JMG even mentioned in a comment some time ago that those of us trained in the occult arts might have to prepare for an influx of students in the years ahead. For those who the standard religions don't apply, I think this is very true.

As an American, too, I think we could get back to some of the material in the Transcendental milieu and use that to our advantage. It is generally universalist... they were influenced by and influenced in turn the unitarians. I know a lot of the right leaning people in JMGs general sphere probably don't have much love for Unitarian, Universalists etc. (I don't really have much love for the UU as it is now myself and identify center-left -whatever is left of the left and may be salvaged from it anyway.) I am more universalist and less unitarian, but this whole area, along with Jacob Boeheme and William Blake and Swedenborg and the Quaker tradition - I think it is ripe for revival. And occultists who are ok with that kind of thing could find a home in these places. Or make new variations thereof.

Finally, I think the Twelve Step tradition is a nascent form of a possible future North American religion -and has offered a ton of practical and spiritual help to those afflicted with addictions. There emphasis on a "God of my own understanding" and a personal higher power, and deemphasis on specific religious dogmas, I think is something that will also be coming into play in the future spiritual trajectory of North America.

AA

Re: Hermetics, Transcendentalism and Twelve Step Groups

[causticus]

AA, these are all fascinating ideas. I've had a lot of similar thoughts over the past few years, like a "Universalist Church" of some sort that isn't a sock puppet of lib-prog platitudes and the Democrat party agenda. The UU church (which I personally can't stand) is exactly that. Otherwise, the bundle of American traditions you list is something I very much agree is due for a revival. Hopefully when the dust settles after the conclusion of our current political convulsions (whenever that might be), this can start to happen in one form or another. One thing I think is quite necessary though for a true universalism, is to fully pull away from the core Nicene Christian dogmas, which would include things like biblical inerrancy, biblical literalism. the linear historical conception, denial of reincarnation, ect. I'd take it a step further and say that a "Hermetic church" rather than an explicitly Christian one might be the way to accomplish this, otherwise the tendency to backslide into entrenched dogmatism will always end up happening, IMHO.

On getting rid of dogmas altogether though, I don't think that's a viable path forward, as we have already seen with many examples. The major problem with a strict "no dogma" approach is that it creates an intellectual and spiritual power vacuum that instantly gets filled in with pop culture nonsense and whatever political fads are currently favored by the bulk of the membership. I think there is a healthy middle-way between Rigid dogmatism and an "anything goes" freeforall; it's called having spiritual principles, and ones rooted in ancient wisdom rather than whatever collection of novelties some materialist intellectual from the last 300 years pulled out of their backside. If the religious org membership doesn't share a few core spiritual principles, then it's going to get totally infiltrated by outside ideas and the org in question will quickly become nothing more than a skinsuit for those outside influences. Hence, the story of nearly all liberal mainline Protestant churches.

On that last part, I've never myself looked deeply into the Twelve Step tradition, but I've heard about its efficacy from other people. Would be interesting if it became a platform for a broader religious tradition.

Re: Hermetics, Transcendentalism and Twelve Step Groups

[(Anonymous)]

I was a UU for the better part of a decade, before I found the Druid Revival.

UUism could theoretically have been a sheltering organization for religious dissidents, but in my experience it has a huge yawning abyss at its heart. By the time I left, it seemed to be divided into elderly atheists who were committed to their Protestant LARP, and an influx of wokies eager to turn the whole organization into another skinsuit.

While I met many wonderful people there, on the whole I am left with no fondness for them.

-Cliff

[lukedodson]

A few years ago, in response to Naomi Wolf's (frankly idiotic) piece on the 'return of the old gods', I floated the idea of taking a hint from Gays Against Groomers, and forming groups like Pagans Against Perversion, or Occultists Against Obscenity. I have far too many other projects on my plate to consider starting such a movement, but if anyone feels like taking up this rather vague baton, please be my guest.

[causticus]

Those sound like good ideas. Though whomever takes on the "Occultists Against Obscenity" role is surely going to be the target of some nasty magical attacks from the "occultists" who fully embrace obscenity.

[alexanderthered]

Thanks for keeping this up for so long. I'm not online very often, so sometimes it takes me a few weeks to find something I'm interested in throwing my two-cents in, but by then it's too late and comments are closed. 😿

After CKs murder, I made the explicit decision to be quiet, wait things out and see how everything unfolded. I'm glad I did.

I live in one of the few parts of the US that is pretty openly neopagan (in the reddit/r/pagan sense of the word) and people here reacted pretty much exactly how neopagan folks online reacted - as in, really, really badly. Most of the Christians here also reacted very poorly, as around here they're very politically liberal (because they - IMO, wrongly - believe that being politically liberal will stop their congregation from shrinking) and so are more politically aligned with local neopagans than they are with more conservative Christian sects.

So around here, the chances of a backlash occuring are pretty much zero as nobody here liked CK in the first place and were generally pretty happy to see him gone. Nobody got cancelled or lost their jobs or anything and with a few exceptions (mostly scolding from the relatively few right wing people here) the local community has largely moved on. There's going to be a 21+ "witch" festival this weekend. I'm definitely **not** attending.

How does this relate to the neopagan community as a whole?

The neopagan community is (generally) a few steps ahead of mainstream liberalism, and IMO acts as a preview of what's to come in our larger culture. And I really do /not/ like what I am seeing.

The neopagan community has largely adopted some version of subjective solipsism as a core tenent of neopaganism. And if you don't accept this solipsism, then you can't call yourself neopagan.

What do I mean by "subjective solipsism"? I mentioned reddits /r/pagan subreddit earlier, and I think that sub is a pretty good example. Ultimately, it's the idea that there is no such thing as a shared reality - rather, ones internal identity is what constitutes reality, and if there is a conflict, then that identity takes precedence. And others MUST accept this, regardless of what it is.

To take an example from that very thread on JMGs Magic Monday dreamwidth post - If your unique neopagan identity says it's OK to leave an offering to Pele in Volcano National Park, then it doesn't matter if it's the wrong offering. It doesn't matter if the National Park service said to stop. It doesn't matter if the locals, who have worshipped her for generations, are saying not to do that. It doesn't matter if you risk pissing her off. Your identity - your reality - says otherwise, therefore not only is it ok, but nobody else is allowed to say otherwise (which is why there's such a huge push for the genericization of language, at least in the Anglosphere, among the Professional Manegerial Class. After all, you can't offend someone elses "reality"!). Examples abound, especially among gods that are present in popular media / young adult novels (think Apollo, Loki, etc).

The result is pretty much what we have seen in the wake of CKs murder - zero ethics. Zero morals. Zero conviction. Zero candor. Viewed through this lens, then many of the actions of the current neopagan scene make a whole lot more sense. Of course someone would try to murder CK via a curse cast by an etsy witch. Of course people reacted the way they did when the curse appeared to have worked. All gains are internal and privatized, and all consequences are external and socialized.

If you look around society right now, you see this beginning to happen everywhere (especially in areas where post-modernism and identity politics flourish) - it's just that the neopagans adopted this first, and so they're pretty far in to it.

Which is why I don't think there is going to be a huge backlash to this specifically. Because the Christians are affected by this too, and they themselves have become too atomized (though they are probably about a decade behind the neopagans in this regard) to really come together and do anything major about it.

Because what is happening with the neopagans isn't exclusive to them - it's a societal problem. And it effects the Christians too.

However, there will be a backlash against this social movement of subjective solipsism as a whole. That backlash I think will take the form of a "re-enchantment" - a wholesale rejection of enlightenment rationalism. It's going to take a pretty long time to play out, though. Likely many generations.

In the meantime, what is to be done? We need refuges for folks who don't want to accept subjective solipsism.

On the Christian side of things, refuge can come in the form of more traditional Christian churches. Orthodox churches in particular have seen significant growth since the end of COVID, as have Protestant churches. The Christian churches that are shrinking are, funny enough, primarily more liberal ones. I suspect that's because they come off as having a lack of conviction, something I personally view as a sign of increasing solipsism. I fully expect more traditionalist Christian churches to grow in the foreseeable future, at the expense of less traditional ones.

On the neopagan side of things, it's more complicated. There are very, very few places of refuge, and the few that do exist tend to be really unsavory (eg, folkish heathenry) or cult-like (or sometimes they're just straight-up cults).

Ultimately I think those who are interested in starting a new movement, or transitioning an existing one, away from solipsism and towards re-enchantment would be wise to consider the following:

* Abandon the terms "neopagan" and "pagan". They carry significant baggage and are not worth using anymore IMO. Start referring to your movement by name (as many Heathens do now) or by some other term, such as "Traditional Religion".

* Adopt an explicit series of morals, ethics, virtues, and convictions - and stick with them, even if society doesn't agree with them. Someone above mentioned "12 steps programs" - that's a really good example. Those who refuse to follow those morals/ethics/virtues/convictions need to be excluded - there are way too many examples of pagans changing their movement for an individual, rather than the individual changing for the movement.

* Break the taboo of involving friends and family, especially children. This taboo has gotten ridiculous, to the point where most neopagans won't even allow kids anywhere near anything. Meanwhile, I can go to literally any Christian church and bring my kids with me, and not only will they be accepted, but they'll actually be allowed to involve themselves in church services! Where are the pagan nurseries? Where are the pagan child care facilities? Where are the pagan private schools!? Religion dies without successors, and the great majority of neopagan faiths are basically on the path of killing themselves. I'm not advocating proselyzation, but if you have kids, involve them in your faith. If you have friends and family, tell them your beliefs, and if they show interest, consider inviting them. Seriously, this taboo is absurd and is 100% self defeating.

* Many neopagan religions have a "too many cooks" problem, as in everyone is a priest / priestess, and nobody is a layperson. This makes it REALLY hard for newbies to join in. No, the problem isn't hierarchy - most religions are hierarchical, and have been since the dawn of time. The problem is the lack of a laity. I can literally walk in to any Christian church right now as a layperson and be accepted (so long as I accept the terms, see "morals, ethics, convictions"). In many neopagan movements, you can't do that. Neopagans need laypeople, and they need a hard separation between laypeople and priests/priestesses. Stop trying to eliminate hierarchy, and instead aim to minimize it while still keeping a solid structure that's easy for people to join.

* Finally - adopt a mindset of a shared reality, and reject atomization and solipsism. Don't allow the outside culture to change the inside culture - if you do, then your movement will be changing cultures constantly, will become unstable, and will come off as having a lack of conviction. Internal culture should change slowly. Dare I say, maybe you should adopt a bit of conservatism in regards to change within your movement! That way people know what they're getting in to, and won't be afraid that something will change in 6 months.

That's all I've got for now. Overall I think the neopagan movement is in pretty big trouble. I agree with JMG in that it's time to let it go, and start loading lifeboats.

[causticus]

Thank you for this! You raise many great points. I hope to have the time soon to respond to some of your specific observations.

I certainly agree with you about the subjectivist solipsism problem. Pretty much everything intellectually inflicting western culture right now has been downstream of enlightenment rationalism (as you point out) and sola scriptura. And as you suggest, Neopaganism is kind of the leading edge of where these trends have ultimately led.

Something that just came to mind regarding your point about pagan community being almost totally unable to perform ordinary community functions, is this article from awhile back:
https://www.churchofasphodel.org/articles/why-my-aunt-judy-isnt-a-pagan-or-how-far-we-still-have-to-go.html

Neopagnaism has mostly functioned as a fandom rather than a proper religion. Fandoms usually are places for adult hobbyists and enthusiasts to gather over some shared interest; they're not places to bring the whole family to. And then there's the issues within Neopaganism that a lot of its adherents are antinatalists.

[brenainn]

A very interesting discussion, and I'm glad it is still ongoing. Much like alexanderthered, I am not very active online and tend to miss out on these great discussions.

I have a few thoughts to offer. These days, I am first and foremost a Mithraist. I've considered possible labels to make my practice a little clearer. "Mithraist Revivalist" seems tempting; much like the DR, we've got only bits and pieces of historical information to include as part of the effort. The rest is really just being guided by Lord Mithras as I proceed. I've also been developing a strong spiritual connection to a long deceased friend, my spirit guide (aka, tamanous). I do, however, continue to honor (to the extent possible) my earlier commitment to the Christian god by attending the Roman Catholic Mass. I have the benefit of being able to hide in plain sight for the time being, thanks to my continued participation in Roman Catholicism.

That benefit is likely to disappear soon, as I'm feeling a strong desire to further develop the initiation rituals I've used and begin offering them to others. I'm not really worried about local backlash. I live in a relatively conservative area, and the local reaction to things like CK's assassination have been mostly reasonable and understandable. I've noticed an influx of mostly young men into more conservative religious options, especially the local Catholic parishes. But no one seems interested in hunting down witches, or retaliatory actions against the insane antics of leftists. They seem more inclined to pray for their enemies and win in the ballot box (made fairly easy these days, with how insane and directionless the Democratic Party now is).

In the next few decades, I suspect the area I live in will become even more conservative (socially and politically) but relatively tolerant of those outside the mainstream provided they're not the obnoxious "in your face" types and don't do stupid things like practice evil magic.

[causticus]

Brenainn, thanks for stopping by and sharing your thoughts!

I actually remember that some number of MMs back (maybe about a year ago?), I was the one who asked you about your Mithraic practices, and that you provided a very informative and fascinating response. This topic interests me greatly because I have an amateur background in researching Iranic religions (at one point years back I wrote my own version of the Gathas of Zarathustra), in addition to being quite familiar with Greco-Roman traditions.

I'm glad to hear that religious people in your area have little interest in hunting down witches or crazy leftists (I certainly think they should be shunned though). One question though. When you say the benefit you enjoy from attending Roman Catholic Mass is about to disappear soon, do you mean that you will be going public about your Mithraism and this will likely involve you being no longer welcome at church? Or do you mean you will be leaving the church when you further develop your rituals?

On the "Mithraist Revivalist" but, yeah I agree that we likely won't ever be able to decode the symbolism of the old mystery religion, much less reconstruct any of the original ritualism. IMHO that would be boring and pointless anyway (Pagan Reonscturctionists really miss the boat on a lot of important things, IMO), since Mithras is indeed a living God, a religion devoted to Him could be re-constituted if He so chooses to do so, which seems like a distinct possibility from what reported on your experiences with Him.

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you for holding opening up this thread. I've been getting concerned, too. And as always, it's hard to know how much of the online world's insanity is bleeding over into regular life.

In my part of rural Colorado, folks tend to be pretty conservative, but we also tend to mind our own business and not ask a lot of questions. I'm hoping that continues. I don't know what's being said in the churches, but publicly I've encountered some grief about Charlie Kirk and not much else.

However, since moving here I've kept my mouth shut about my spiritual leanings, because I know how rapidly gossip can spread in a small town.

One thing I've been irked by, regarding online pagans, is their habit of launching continual jibes and insults at Christianity. Is it too much to plainly state that Christianity is a perfectly valid religion?

-Cliff

[causticus]

You're welcome. Thank you for stopping by, and thanks for the data point!

I certainly agree that the constant jabs and insults against Christianity and Christians is rather puerile and unproductive, to say the least. It really shows that the bulk of Neopaganism has always been so fixated on rebelling against the (once) Christian overculture.

[rhydlyd]

Ah... I got over my case of preacher's kid syndrome (My mom was director of Christian education at a very large and prosperous mainstream Protestant institution. What a front row seat that was!)
I've concluded anyone with the time to make cheap shots isn't using that time wisely.
Sorry - Dour Puritan remains a default setting for me.

all sorts of ways to be unorthodox

[kallianeira]

Thanks everyone for your contributions to a most interesting and timely discussion.

In my small town in NSW, there are no visible non-Christian spiritualities. I am keeping quiet, under the radar I hope. Whenever a local church missionary comes to the door, or the pest control man gives me a brochure, I say, "I am very religious," which is true,... "but I don't want to join another church." I am not sure how broad ecumenicalism has become in this country, since last week I heard a story from my Catholic city dwelling parents that the Uniting Church (a relatively liberal Protestant denomination formed in the 1970s from several conservative hellfire etc groups) pastor who officiated at the funeral of their friend Bruce ALSO regularly attends Mass at their church. When I asked in confusion what gave, my mother simply answered, "He's a Catholic." ???? Yet when I was a child, even an ordained CoE minister who wanted to convert to Catholicism needed to do the dogma lessons and go through official approval in order to receive communion.

Here in the country a number of the churches do not have resident ministers. A plumber and his family live in the Anglican rectory. I gather that some people feel this gives them leave to attend another church service as the nearest available approximation.

Re: all sorts of ways to be unorthodox

[causticus]

Thank you for the data points!

Branding and Post-Lefty Neopaganism

[rhydlyd]

Many thanks to our host for the use of this forum and the kind ears of the commentariat.
I’ve noticed a spurious fear Christianity that has gelled up around third-wave feminism and the pseudo-spiritual egregor and academic movement associated with it. That is funny to me because, having grown up in the business of churching, the kind of cohesion required for mass action against lefty neopagans and lefties in general simply isn’t there. Given the big tent the Republicans are putting up, the second religiosity vibe of the brand of Protestantism they’re incubating, their focus on their future rather than the other side’s past and the way the left is fading out, witch hunts and crusades seem unlikely. On the other hand, left neopagans acting like Bugs Bunny in “Rebel Rabbit” where Bugs sets out to prove he is worth more than a two-cent bounty could cause lingering difficulties. Intentionally, obviously. Gotta feed that monster from the ego.
On the other hand, I’m a member of the Green Wizard’s Benevolent and Protective Association. You know, the ones that read Toynbee and get denounced by the fashionable left as MAGA-hats or worse because we take the long view, love Western Civilization, and (most frighteningly) own tools to do stuff with. However, suspicion abounds thanks to the efforts of lefty neopagans. I deal with the down-market Christians here by being a two-fisted Yankee magus, Red, White and Blue through and through.
There’s a layer of stupid in Christianity that parallels the insufferable left, remaining unassailable in hardened plates of egomania. A credible threat of physical violence (I do target sports.) or administrative retribution via company policy against being a jerk will keep those ankle-biters at bay, but the more reasonable Christians respond to a good Puritan scolding:
Well, obviously, you’re worried that you have no defense against the dark arts, but you have plenty. Did you pray Psalm 23 when you got up today?
No? Mm.
Did you say grace at meals?
Not even on Sunday?
Did you say the Pledge of Allegiance? Pray for the President?
No? He could really use your help, you know.
Oh, your kid is in the military? Did you place your father’s or mother’s blessing on him or her today? At all?
No? Mm.
You’re getting your knee fixed? Okay, let me put you on the thoughts and prayers list.
Say, would you like to come join me for sunrise services on Sunday morning? We start at the crack of dark, sharp.
Crickets.
When barbecue grills are present, I ask, “Are you going to bless your hearth? No? Mm. May I?”
Conveniently, I was raised to believe in the United States. Patriotism that isn’t fake goes a long way here in the Rust Belt.
Your flag? Your flag? What do the colors in your flag mean? (Let them fumble for a bit.) How about Blood, Milk and Sky? (Thanks to White Zombie for the great line and the cautionary tale in that song.)
And, oddly enough, lots of people like having their own personal Gandalf.
A related thought: Your state’s hunter education course is proof of the muscular side of Druidry as well as a good primer for those new to the great outdoors. It and the lessons in John Greer’s Green Wizardry provide plenty of talking points for the aspiring New Populist Druid and plenty of ins for talking with AND LISTENING TO the beleaguered folk of flyover country.

a college student's perspective

[only1bladetitan]

I've actually been rather worried about this too. I have been in college for the past 5 years and seen a progression of students in my area go from welcoming of the diversity of religions they see present on campus to significantly less welcoming of the idea of the occult and non-christian beliefs, moreso severely recently. I ran a pagan org at my college up until recently, and after a rumor was spread that people were protesting our events, people stopped coming out of fear of retribution. No one was protesting, to be clear, but the fact that the idea of someone protesting made a lot of our members afraid of being targeted by the more conservative students we have on campus. some students didn't like the idea of having to actually make an effort to do the things we were talking about, but I think that's almost entirely to blame on the neopagan movement and how companies have tried to make the occult and pagan practices into an aesthetic you can buy to be and not put any effort into, which is so sad to me. I'm hoping it doesn't come down to needing to go into hiding religiously, but if needed I converted most of my books into a .txt or .pdf library that I'm keeping on a microSD card. I think whether or not that's needed is going to be a matter of how deep people end up diving into their own madness of extremes and whether or not they'll feel emboldened to do so by the current administration. I don't know that it's gotten that far yet, but I feel like it's definitely something to look out for just in case. Really wish this wasn't happening. I appreciate you posting this.

Re: a college student's perspective

[causticus]

Thank you for the data points!