Cultural Backlash: An Open Post
Sep. 23rd, 2025 11:38 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
causticusThere were some interesting discussions on yesterday's Magic Monday post and on the past month's or so posts on the Ecosophia blog regarding the collapse of alternative spirituality in the West and a likely impending cultural backlash against decades of general rot and grubbiness that is decaying our civilization from within.
Some of us here in the US are afraid that a sudden cultural jolt in the other direction, away from leftism/progressivism, will result in any type of spirituality that doesn't fit a narrow, literalist Christian/Abrahamic format as being seen by the reaction mob as "part of the problem." Anything the people leading and directing this backlash deem to be adjacent to the aforementioned cultural rot will be lazily lumped together into one big, bad conspiracy against what they believe they are trying to save and preserve. This likely means anything occult/esoteric, overtly pagan, or too foreign will be included, with very little nuance. As we know, the moral collapse of both Neopaganism and the postmodern occult scene hasn't helped matters at all in this respect, especially in light of recent tragic events.
Anyway, I want to know what anyone else here thinks of this and anything in your own area (US or somewhere else) you have seen indicative of a new cultural direction that may or or may not involve the condemnation of the things I listed above (or anything else that comes to mind). Also, we could use this space to think up ideas on how to preserve and carry on various spiritual teachings and practices if/when an intolerant religious climate becomes reality.
This is an open post that will stay open for quite a long time.
Some of us here in the US are afraid that a sudden cultural jolt in the other direction, away from leftism/progressivism, will result in any type of spirituality that doesn't fit a narrow, literalist Christian/Abrahamic format as being seen by the reaction mob as "part of the problem." Anything the people leading and directing this backlash deem to be adjacent to the aforementioned cultural rot will be lazily lumped together into one big, bad conspiracy against what they believe they are trying to save and preserve. This likely means anything occult/esoteric, overtly pagan, or too foreign will be included, with very little nuance. As we know, the moral collapse of both Neopaganism and the postmodern occult scene hasn't helped matters at all in this respect, especially in light of recent tragic events.
Anyway, I want to know what anyone else here thinks of this and anything in your own area (US or somewhere else) you have seen indicative of a new cultural direction that may or or may not involve the condemnation of the things I listed above (or anything else that comes to mind). Also, we could use this space to think up ideas on how to preserve and carry on various spiritual teachings and practices if/when an intolerant religious climate becomes reality.
This is an open post that will stay open for quite a long time.
(no subject)
Date: 2025-09-23 11:27 pm (UTC)I definitely share the concerns, though I'd place myself more at "keep an eye out for signs that this is happening" than "it's definitely coming, be ready for it."
In-person, I haven't really noticed much to indicate things going one way or the other, other than that any Neopagan/Wiccan or adjacent spaces I've observed definitely show signs of "fading fad" - fewer, older people, groups no longer meeting, et cetera. On the other hand, I haven't seen all that many signs of resurgent Christianity, but then, I run in fairly secular PMC circles, and despite living in Texas, I live in a big city, so I may not be seeing folks turning to a stronger emphasis on Christianity in their lives.
Where I do see the more (possibly) worrying trends is in online discourse, especially among right wing folks most disgusted with the way the culture has been going for the last [insert length of time you think since things started "going wrong"], some of whom seem to more often be pointing to the lack of Christian belief as where the problem came from and/or the presence of strong, widespread Christian belief as the necessary condition for fixing the problems. Luckily, not everyone who holds variations of these beliefs is hostile or belligerent about it - some are more like "your heart's in the right place, and you're on the right side, but you're mistaken to be doing it outside of the teachings and structure of the Church." The maybe reason for optimism that I see here is actually some of the spats we've been seeing on the extremely online right between "based pagans" and "Christ bros," though more accurately, it's the non-spat, more reasonable interactions that give me hope. To the degree these (admittedly) very online discussions are upstream of the wider cultural zeitgeist, having a tiny, but vocal, contingent of polytheists saying "hey guys, we're not all nihilistic materialist leftists" might be carving out some room in the mental geography of folks who want to see the culture change in a big way to accept that maybe there's room for some of the spiritual weirdos on the other side. At least I hope so.
If I had to put on my prognosticator hat, and I assumed that there's not much a few weirdos like us can do against larger cultural and political trends, I'd likely say the best possible outcome I can see in the near to medium term is something like Charles Haywood's "ecumenicalism light" - Christianity becomes more culturally and politically assertive, maybe even dominant, and it's openly and explicitly favored, but room is left for folks to have their own beliefs as long as they don't translate into activities seen as culturally corrosive. So, maybe it's a long time yet (if ever) before we have Heathen Holy Guilds hosting festivals and doling out charity in partnership with the local Church, but I'm hopeful that I'm not gonna get run out of town or worse for quietly worshipping in my own home.
I'll be interested to see what others think, though.
Cheers,
Jeff
(no subject)
Date: 2025-09-24 03:59 pm (UTC)Really does make me wonder how unrepresentative of reality the various flavors of "extremely online right" really are. I'd wager that right wing Pagans, TradCaths, Orthobros, and Christian Nationalists are each well less than 1% of the US population. Self-identified Pagans as a whole likely aren't even 1%.
What is a little harder to gauge is the degree of representation of random "normie" internet comments, i.e. ordinary people blowing off steam in the comment sections on various social media platforms and older media sites. There I see a lot of generic Christian sentiments expressed.
I totally agree on that last part.
(no subject)
Date: 2025-09-24 04:38 pm (UTC)I also agree that it's hard to gauge the temperature on "normies" - Librarian of Celaeno's gives some insight (from an admittedly strongly pro-traditional Orthodox point of view): https://librarianofcelaeno.substack.com/p/fall-for-jesus-he-never-leaves
If I had to guess, my assumption is pretty close to what you posited as a possibility in the main post: the vast majority of normal people will look around, not like where things have gotten, and in wondering "what alternative is there?" something like "the way things used to be" will have a strong appeal, especially with all of the social and cultural factors driving Spengler's second religiosity. As such, I imagine some form of earnest, not that weird Christianity will appear as a viable and attractive option to many, which wouldn't necessarily lead to witch hunts or the Satanic panic, but might leave some looking askance at anyone not being willing to hop aboard the train as a possible hold out for "the bad old days."
But I guess we'll see, one way or another.
Cheers,
Jeff
(no subject)
Date: 2025-09-25 06:28 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2025-09-26 10:03 pm (UTC)I've been deeply concerned how recent events will impact the changing religious landscape and the possibility of a new "anticult" movement. in my county the Neopagan scene is small, but present, and unfortunately it leans to the left (I've learned to keep my trap shut whenever politics come up). If there are conservative, libertarian, or moderate Pagans and occultists in my area they're not in the local Neopagan scene as far as I can tell. There's going to be a monthly meetup tonight, so I'm going to see what the vibe currently is. There is some young blood, but most of the movers and shakers are Boomers and Gen X.
On a tangential note, I've noticed the local Goth scene is pretty Woke as well. Every time I attend the local Goth festival I frequently see groomer flags and Satanic sigils. Not a good sign of their survivability.
I don't know what the local Christian response has been to recent events. I live in a largely Hispanic area with an aging and moribund Anglo culture, and I know there's a couple of botanicas in town.
I am encouraged to see more traditionalist and conservative Pagans and occultists emerging on social media (although the folkish aspects aren't my cuppa, and I can do without the explicitly racist and antisemetic nonsense).
I've also been thinking of how to preserve alternative spirituality. Three things I'd like to do are these:
1) in the short term I'd like to start an ecumenical/interspiritual book club dedicated to Platonist, Pythagorean, and Hermetic spirituality, and gradually introduce lodge elements like simple quarter calls and representations of the elements present. This could serve as an outer court to a society dedicated to the Path of Return.
2) I would like to start a nonprofit dedicated to the conservation of rejected knowledge, which would include alternative spirituality in addition to practical skills. It would be modeled on groups like the Theosophical Society and Christian Science reading rooms.
3) as a Christopagan occultist who's spent years on and off in discernment towards ordination (previously with a mainstream church, now in the weird world of independent esoteric churches) and if I ever do become ordained I would like to open a ministry or parish to those of alternative beliefs and practices and provide them sanctuary and "respectable" cover. As long as they're comfortable with Christian symbolism and abide by a standard of magical ethics.
I'm just spitballing ideas and seeing what sticks. I could also be babbling. Thank you for hearing me out, I would appreciate any feedback. Have a wonderful weekend.
Sincerely,
Sanctuary of the Rose and Chalice.
(no subject)
Date: 2025-09-27 03:17 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2025-09-27 02:27 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2025-09-27 02:57 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2025-09-27 03:08 pm (UTC)If you don't mind, please let us know about the vibe you picked up at that meeting. Though I have no recent experiences with IRL paganism, I'd venture to guess it's rather leftist and woke.
I don't know how representative online paganism is of paganism overall, but current day pagans who are most vocal about being pagans online (as you probably know already) tend to be either woke leftists or white nationalists/identitarians. There's a few who are moderates, libertarians, and conservatives but their voices tend to get drowned out by the former types. Unfortunately, most religion and spirituality these days has become a front for politics.
1. You're speaking my language here. I'd be very interested in a group like this!
2. Ditto on this as well.
3. I suspect the esoteric Christian churches and orgs will go the same way as Neopagan groups have gone, if they haven't already.
(no subject)
Date: 2025-09-27 04:35 pm (UTC)I wasn’t able to attend this month’s meeting as planned, I’ll have to try again next month. But outside the friendships I’ve established I’m probably not missing much.
As for esoteric churches, I largely agree with the assessment that they are dying off as well. Although, the ones I’m interested are more interested in ordination as personal spiritual development and are more quasi-monastic than parochial. If they have congregations they’re more like sacramental house churches.
(no subject)
Date: 2025-09-27 08:59 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2025-09-29 08:59 pm (UTC)Greco-Roman polytheists and Heathens should ditch the togas and furs and leathers respectively. The classic white robes of the Druid revival may still work outside of the USA, but in America most folks associate white robes with a certain organization (you know who). Where does this leave us for ceremonial clothes? I say a post on twitter advocating a style of clothing from the 5th century common to both Germanics and late Classical Romans (if I find it again I'll share the link in the comment section). Laity could where business casual, or their "Sunday best." Even sharp looking vintage clothes would be an improvement.
That's all I have for now. Feedback is appreciated.
Sincerely,
Sanctuary of the Rose and Chalice
(no subject)
Date: 2025-09-30 02:36 am (UTC)Iolo Morganwg wrote that depending on a Druid Revivalist's specialty, green, blue, or white robes were worn. That may have been something he made up, or it could have been a bit of authentic lore that he found, but it does provide for options within the Druid Revival tradition. AODA does not dictate robe color or style; it's up to one's personal Awen or inspiration.
I don't have anything to add to what the rest of you have brought up so far, but the issue is certainly on my mind.
(no subject)
Date: 2025-09-30 04:03 pm (UTC)I'll go by Anonymous Anonymous here for now.
(no subject)
Date: 2025-09-30 04:06 pm (UTC)I think a lot about hiding in plain sight.
Anonymous Anonymous
(no subject)
Date: 2025-09-30 04:12 pm (UTC)I do hope a spirit of ecumenicism can return to the churches. Christianities insistence on being the only true path is one of the most major turn offs for me going deeper that way.
Anonymous Anonymous
(no subject)
Date: 2025-09-30 04:13 pm (UTC)Anonymous Anonymous
(no subject)
Date: 2025-09-30 04:15 pm (UTC)As a solo practitioner I don't have a set of robes. I wear my regular clothes. In the warm months I might take my shirt off, but I'm in a city, so I'm inside.
Anonymous Anonymous
(no subject)
Date: 2025-09-30 05:58 pm (UTC)I most certainly agree that churches lacking a liturgy are completely devoid of the magical side of the religion. At best, such churches are mere support groups or an excuse to organize community events.
(no subject)
Date: 2025-09-30 06:02 pm (UTC)I think a lot of this is due to the centuries of crass materialism that's been inflicted on our civilization. People either fear or dismiss the unseen.
(no subject)
Date: 2025-09-30 06:05 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2025-09-30 06:17 pm (UTC)On what to wear, I know that the more serious of Heathen groups have embraced the "Sunday best" type attire for lay participants. For Druids or any other sort of polytheist cleric, the simple white alb robe works just find and doesn't stand out as anything remotely weird or nefarious. I agree that wearing a toga or bear pelt or whatever is totally stupid and and immediate sign that one's religion/spirituality is unserious. The cosplay nonsense has to go.
(no subject)
Date: 2025-09-30 06:19 pm (UTC)AA
(no subject)
Date: 2025-09-30 06:22 pm (UTC)The would be very interesting (and welcomed!) if such experiences brought on honest inquires into mystical and occult teachings.
(no subject)
Date: 2025-09-30 06:24 pm (UTC)AA