Cultural Backlash: An Open Post

[causticus]

There were some interesting discussions on yesterday's Magic Monday post and on the past month's or so posts on the Ecosophia blog regarding the collapse of alternative spirituality in the West and a likely impending cultural backlash against decades of general rot and grubbiness that is decaying our civilization from within.

Some of us here in the US are afraid that a sudden cultural jolt in the other direction, away from leftism/progressivism, will result in any type of spirituality that doesn't fit a narrow, literalist Christian/Abrahamic format as being seen by the reaction mob as "part of the problem." Anything the people leading and directing this backlash deem to be adjacent to the aforementioned cultural rot will be lazily lumped together into one big, bad conspiracy against what they believe they are trying to save and preserve. This likely means anything occult/esoteric, overtly pagan, or too foreign will be included, with very little nuance. As we know, the moral collapse of both Neopaganism and the postmodern occult scene hasn't helped matters at all in this respect, especially in light of recent tragic events.

Anyway, I want to know what anyone else here thinks of this and anything in your own area (US or somewhere else) you have seen indicative of a new cultural direction that may or or may not involve the condemnation of the things I listed above (or anything else that comes to mind). Also, we could use this space to think up ideas on how to preserve and carry on various spiritual teachings and practices if/when an intolerant religious climate becomes reality.

This is an open post that will stay open for quite a long time.

Comments

[alexanderthered]

Thanks for keeping this up for so long. I'm not online very often, so sometimes it takes me a few weeks to find something I'm interested in throwing my two-cents in, but by then it's too late and comments are closed. 😿

After CKs murder, I made the explicit decision to be quiet, wait things out and see how everything unfolded. I'm glad I did.

I live in one of the few parts of the US that is pretty openly neopagan (in the reddit/r/pagan sense of the word) and people here reacted pretty much exactly how neopagan folks online reacted - as in, really, really badly. Most of the Christians here also reacted very poorly, as around here they're very politically liberal (because they - IMO, wrongly - believe that being politically liberal will stop their congregation from shrinking) and so are more politically aligned with local neopagans than they are with more conservative Christian sects.

So around here, the chances of a backlash occuring are pretty much zero as nobody here liked CK in the first place and were generally pretty happy to see him gone. Nobody got cancelled or lost their jobs or anything and with a few exceptions (mostly scolding from the relatively few right wing people here) the local community has largely moved on. There's going to be a 21+ "witch" festival this weekend. I'm definitely **not** attending.

How does this relate to the neopagan community as a whole?

The neopagan community is (generally) a few steps ahead of mainstream liberalism, and IMO acts as a preview of what's to come in our larger culture. And I really do /not/ like what I am seeing.

The neopagan community has largely adopted some version of subjective solipsism as a core tenent of neopaganism. And if you don't accept this solipsism, then you can't call yourself neopagan.

What do I mean by "subjective solipsism"? I mentioned reddits /r/pagan subreddit earlier, and I think that sub is a pretty good example. Ultimately, it's the idea that there is no such thing as a shared reality - rather, ones internal identity is what constitutes reality, and if there is a conflict, then that identity takes precedence. And others MUST accept this, regardless of what it is.

To take an example from that very thread on JMGs Magic Monday dreamwidth post - If your unique neopagan identity says it's OK to leave an offering to Pele in Volcano National Park, then it doesn't matter if it's the wrong offering. It doesn't matter if the National Park service said to stop. It doesn't matter if the locals, who have worshipped her for generations, are saying not to do that. It doesn't matter if you risk pissing her off. Your identity - your reality - says otherwise, therefore not only is it ok, but nobody else is allowed to say otherwise (which is why there's such a huge push for the genericization of language, at least in the Anglosphere, among the Professional Manegerial Class. After all, you can't offend someone elses "reality"!). Examples abound, especially among gods that are present in popular media / young adult novels (think Apollo, Loki, etc).

The result is pretty much what we have seen in the wake of CKs murder - zero ethics. Zero morals. Zero conviction. Zero candor. Viewed through this lens, then many of the actions of the current neopagan scene make a whole lot more sense. Of course someone would try to murder CK via a curse cast by an etsy witch. Of course people reacted the way they did when the curse appeared to have worked. All gains are internal and privatized, and all consequences are external and socialized.

If you look around society right now, you see this beginning to happen everywhere (especially in areas where post-modernism and identity politics flourish) - it's just that the neopagans adopted this first, and so they're pretty far in to it.

Which is why I don't think there is going to be a huge backlash to this specifically. Because the Christians are affected by this too, and they themselves have become too atomized (though they are probably about a decade behind the neopagans in this regard) to really come together and do anything major about it.

Because what is happening with the neopagans isn't exclusive to them - it's a societal problem. And it effects the Christians too.

However, there will be a backlash against this social movement of subjective solipsism as a whole. That backlash I think will take the form of a "re-enchantment" - a wholesale rejection of enlightenment rationalism. It's going to take a pretty long time to play out, though. Likely many generations.

In the meantime, what is to be done? We need refuges for folks who don't want to accept subjective solipsism.

On the Christian side of things, refuge can come in the form of more traditional Christian churches. Orthodox churches in particular have seen significant growth since the end of COVID, as have Protestant churches. The Christian churches that are shrinking are, funny enough, primarily more liberal ones. I suspect that's because they come off as having a lack of conviction, something I personally view as a sign of increasing solipsism. I fully expect more traditionalist Christian churches to grow in the foreseeable future, at the expense of less traditional ones.

On the neopagan side of things, it's more complicated. There are very, very few places of refuge, and the few that do exist tend to be really unsavory (eg, folkish heathenry) or cult-like (or sometimes they're just straight-up cults).

Ultimately I think those who are interested in starting a new movement, or transitioning an existing one, away from solipsism and towards re-enchantment would be wise to consider the following:

* Abandon the terms "neopagan" and "pagan". They carry significant baggage and are not worth using anymore IMO. Start referring to your movement by name (as many Heathens do now) or by some other term, such as "Traditional Religion".

* Adopt an explicit series of morals, ethics, virtues, and convictions - and stick with them, even if society doesn't agree with them. Someone above mentioned "12 steps programs" - that's a really good example. Those who refuse to follow those morals/ethics/virtues/convictions need to be excluded - there are way too many examples of pagans changing their movement for an individual, rather than the individual changing for the movement.

* Break the taboo of involving friends and family, especially children. This taboo has gotten ridiculous, to the point where most neopagans won't even allow kids anywhere near anything. Meanwhile, I can go to literally any Christian church and bring my kids with me, and not only will they be accepted, but they'll actually be allowed to involve themselves in church services! Where are the pagan nurseries? Where are the pagan child care facilities? Where are the pagan private schools!? Religion dies without successors, and the great majority of neopagan faiths are basically on the path of killing themselves. I'm not advocating proselyzation, but if you have kids, involve them in your faith. If you have friends and family, tell them your beliefs, and if they show interest, consider inviting them. Seriously, this taboo is absurd and is 100% self defeating.

* Many neopagan religions have a "too many cooks" problem, as in everyone is a priest / priestess, and nobody is a layperson. This makes it REALLY hard for newbies to join in. No, the problem isn't hierarchy - most religions are hierarchical, and have been since the dawn of time. The problem is the lack of a laity. I can literally walk in to any Christian church right now as a layperson and be accepted (so long as I accept the terms, see "morals, ethics, convictions"). In many neopagan movements, you can't do that. Neopagans need laypeople, and they need a hard separation between laypeople and priests/priestesses. Stop trying to eliminate hierarchy, and instead aim to minimize it while still keeping a solid structure that's easy for people to join.

* Finally - adopt a mindset of a shared reality, and reject atomization and solipsism. Don't allow the outside culture to change the inside culture - if you do, then your movement will be changing cultures constantly, will become unstable, and will come off as having a lack of conviction. Internal culture should change slowly. Dare I say, maybe you should adopt a bit of conservatism in regards to change within your movement! That way people know what they're getting in to, and won't be afraid that something will change in 6 months.

That's all I've got for now. Overall I think the neopagan movement is in pretty big trouble. I agree with JMG in that it's time to let it go, and start loading lifeboats.

[causticus]

Thank you for this! You raise many great points. I hope to have the time soon to respond to some of your specific observations.

I certainly agree with you about the subjectivist solipsism problem. Pretty much everything intellectually inflicting western culture right now has been downstream of enlightenment rationalism (as you point out) and sola scriptura. And as you suggest, Neopaganism is kind of the leading edge of where these trends have ultimately led.

Something that just came to mind regarding your point about pagan community being almost totally unable to perform ordinary community functions, is this article from awhile back:
https://www.churchofasphodel.org/articles/why-my-aunt-judy-isnt-a-pagan-or-how-far-we-still-have-to-go.html

Neopagnaism has mostly functioned as a fandom rather than a proper religion. Fandoms usually are places for adult hobbyists and enthusiasts to gather over some shared interest; they're not places to bring the whole family to. And then there's the issues within Neopaganism that a lot of its adherents are antinatalists.

[alexanderthered]

Thanks, I look forward to reading your thoughts!

That article from the church of Asphodel was exactly what I had in mind when writing my comment. It's a great article that really touches on some pretty serious issues that most neopagans just don't seem very interested in addressing.

As I alluded to in my comment, while I believe that the neopagan ship is sinking, I *do* think that there are some viable lifeboats available. I like what the Heathens are doing (it helps that they don't have any qualms about passing on their beliefs to their kids!).

The problem is, the neopagan ship *really* doesn't want to let these lifeboats go. The very nature of Subjective Solipsism means that anyone who doesn't accept (or as many say, "affirm") the "reality" (identity) of neopagans as prima facie true or correct risks ostracization and potentially violence (both physical and metaphysical) from those whos "reality" were offended. Sticking with the ship allegory, it's as if the lifeboats are attached to rusty pullies that won't budge until a certain amount of weight is put in them, then they suddenly, and violently, fail - and not many people survive that fall. Oftentimes, the whole lifeboat is destroyed.

Then there's the vortex - as the ship sinks beneath the waves, it'll create a vortex, sucking down anything too close to it. The only way to avoid that is to distance oneself as far away from the neopagan ship as possible - for many, that means switching over to Christianity (which has been picking up steam ever since the end of the COVID pandemic). For folks who practice a religion that's neopagan, it's going to be very difficult (albeit not impossible) to distance oneself adequately to keep from getting sucked back in.

For instance, say that you're able to establish a movement that isn't post-modern or solipsist, that has solid values, and actually provides for the local community - and you manage to keep it that way for some time. As it grows, the first people to try and dismantle it likely won't be Christians - it will likely be other neopagans who view you and your movement as violating their solipsistic "reality" with your existence. They'll try and destroy your reputation online; they'll try to "infiltrate" your movement by pretending they're an adherent for social media clout (very popular in LGBTQ+ spaces at the moment); they will explicitly exclude you from forums with other neopagan faiths/movements to prevent you from having any kind of voice (and any forum that does include you will get a target on its back. See the intersection of college debates and identity politics); That's the "vortex" at work.

Thus I believe, strongly, that the answer to the issues in neopaganism are new/novel movements, rather than break-offs/schisms.

Ultimately, I think that most neopagans are just not serious about their faith, and, as you say, view it more as an adult hobby that explicitly excludes children. They would view the establishment of a movement that has solid values and that *does* include children as a threat to their exclusive hobby and, by extension, to their "reality", which is why such a movement hasn't really formed yet.

I have been very slowly but surely working out such a movement for a few years now. Unfortunately, the realities of modern society make it very difficult to make anything that is deeper than surface-level, and the risks of coming out with something that isn't very thorough are pretty extreme, especially if, like most people (and myself), you have a family and need to work for a living. That's a big reason why I so rarely post anything on my blog, and why progress on Sylvydism seems to have stalled. It hasn't - but I'm mostly working on slowly aligning my life and my family towards something that is extremely high-friction in modern society, rather than working on the specifics, at the moment.

I still pray to the spirits of nature, perform offerings, perform divination, etc. but besides putting some occasional feelers out, I'm mostly staying quiet for now. I think I'm in the right place - just waiting for the right time. Which *is* coming. It's just not here yet.

I'm not the only one in the right place, waiting for the right time. I suspect soon - very soon, maybe before this decade is out - we are going to get a big influx of new religious movements here in the West. The people are tired of post-modernism, and they yearn for enchantment. They are begging for guidance.

And when it happens, neopagans are NOT going to be happy about it.

[causticus]

Hello again Alexander, my apologies for the delayed response!

Honestly, I think a lot of the lifeboats left long ago. As one example, and as Jeff alluded to in another comment, the more serious of Heathens that are still around have done a lot of work in starkly differentiating their religion from Neopaganism, to the point where these are now mostly separate things. I think Heathenry has been able to survive, because it has a lot of built-in features that are not captured by the 60s counterculture nonsense that spawned the Neopagan movement. Heathenry is thoroughly masculine and has a clear understanding of order vs. chaos, good vs. evil, the importance of venerating ancestors, a respect of ancient tradition, ect. I'm not a Heathen myself, but there's some aspects of Heathenry I've incorporated into my my own eclectic understanding of things. IN further developing your Sylvydism project, I might suggest taking a look there for a few insights to incorporate, particularly concepts like Luck/Hamingja, which is essentially a term for spiritual qualities that affect and shape individuals and groups.

IMHO, most other things that have been caught up in the Neopagan + pop-occult paradigm are simply unsalvagable. There will be no "make witchcraft great again" or anything along those lines. The Trangressive aesthetic is out; the (renewed) search for order and meaning is in. But yeah, there's very few other things from postmodern spirituality worth looking at. Most of the useful parts I've taken from the Druid Revival tradition are things that predate its current Neopagan-inflected format, which essentially is just boomer hippie spirituality and has become increasingly woke in recent years like the rest of Neopaganism. Really, any type of spirituality populated by the laptop class, has gone hard in that direction.

On future or emerging spiritual movement, yeah this is going to take some time! I will be a slow roll for sure. I think the phase where forming communities is even possible is probably at least several decades away. Any project or movement that is able to form communities will be one that has tangible benefits to offer to ordinary folk (to circle back to that article I shared with you); as we know, the average person has very little interest in the technical stuff people like us like to nerd out over.

[alexanderthered]

Thanks for the reply!

The Heathens have put in a lot of work over the years to ensure they have a solid set of principles, morals and ethics, and to hold the line when someone (often a person who describe themselves as neopagan) inevitably comes in to try and upend it all. While they certainly have their challenges, I think they have a much brighter future than most other neopagan-associated religions, as its largely managed to make itself independent of the big neopagan tent.

Re:luck, I'm working on a philosophy that's somewhat related - the idea that the universe isn't random, but pseudorandom.

This means essentially that, while nothing is predetermined, there is a limited number of possible outcomes given a situation (though, this being a big universe, that number might be really high).

Situations can be further changed utilyzing energy from the universe / nature in the form of magic or prayer, from the deities, daemons and spirits, etc

It also forms a basis for why divination and various other magical or psychic pheonomina work, and I do plan on extending this to luck (both bestowed luck from the spirits, as well as luck in the form of built up positive energies and good old fashioned positioning+action (right place plus right time)).

It's early days yet though and I have a lot to learn :)

I agree with you re:neopaganism being largely unsalvageable. The term "Witchcraft" has really bad connotations to the point where I refuse to call myself a witch (at the moment, I use the term Cleric, but I also like Magi/Magus), not that I found the term very palatable in the first place.

The early Druid stuff is really interesting and was one of the first things I looked in to heavily after failing to really connect with neopagans. The latest I'm willing to go is RDNA - while they're definitely a bit much, their documentation is excellent, and I found their "nature is good" philosophy nice and succinct enough to adopt it in to Sylvydism.

And yes I'm aware of the founding of RDNA and how it wasn't originally a serious thing. I still think they have some philosophical value though, at least until they (and every other Druid sect) got sucked in to the Age of Aquarius stuff in the late 60s / early 70s. That, combined with the fact that some Druids have been pushing the idea of making their religion proprietary, doesn't really vibe with me.

(FWIW, everything I release for Sylvydism will be public domain. I don't believe in making spirituality proprietary. We will make money for the organization - IF I even make one, which I don't even know if it'll even get that far - selling clothes for clergy or something.)

Re:technical stuff, I agree. The lack of space for lay people is a big problem in neopaganism- honestly, most people just want some guidance and stability in their lives. They don't want to be clergy, they don't want to be in charge, they don't want to do big group incantations on the regular or become a theologian just to be involved, they just want to come in, worship, ask for guidance / advice, and sometimes bring some food with them to contribute to a potluck.

But there's no space for these people in the vast majority of neopagan beliefs.

Neopaganism has a "too many cooks" problem and, combined with the taboo of involving kids as well as the push for cultural subjective solipsism, is going to result in its eventual destruction. It's already wildly unstable, and getting less stable every year.

As I like to say IRL- if your only ethic is consent, then you have no ethics. If your only moral is consent, then you have no morals. And if your only philosophy is consent, then you have no philosophy. This is a huge problem in neopaganism, and it's slowly percolating in to mainstream culture as a whole.

The proliferation of post-modern deconstruction in to the larger culture and every day life has resulted in people having nothing, and it's not sustainable.

[jprussell]

Pretty much agreed on all points! As a Heathen, I stopped thinking of myself or calling myself a "pagan" or "neopagan" pretty much as soon as I got serious about believing the Gods are actual, separate beings, and not just archetypes of the deep mind or whatever (I went through that phase for a bit and was more-or-less happy to see Heathenry as just another flavor of neopaganism. Luckily, more serious Heathens had already been distancing themselves, so when I got there, I wasn't off on my own).

Also, for what it's worth, while I've not yet found any in-person groups to get involved with, I read the Norse myths to my girls, pray with the older one and plan to do so with the younger one when she's old enough, and openly talk with them about what I believe, how it differs from what others believe, and why those differences have led me to where I am, but I'm not otherwise "out" as a polytheist, except online, obviously. I'm comfortable sharing under my name here because I'm not ashamed of my beliefs and don't do anything to give normies the creeps, so if it "comes out," I'd be like "why yes, I do worship the Germanic Gods, what of it?" But in the meantime, it's easier to mostly fly under the radar.

One other thought on the child-unfriendliness of the Neopagan scene. As JMG has pointed out, during its heyday, the Neopagan/Wiccan scene was quite intentionally libertine, with lots of casual sex and alternative lifestyles, so it makes sense that the folks who came up in that wouldn't want kids around (at least, I'd hope they don't), but it is also a big part of why so little of the Neopagan scene created anything with roots and is now mostly the same people that came for the casual sex in the 80s and 90s, but didn't drift away for one reason or another. In the city where I live there's a "Pagans Night Out" that meets for drinks once a month, and checking their facebook page, it's all middle-aged or older folks.

Oh, and more in response to your follow on comment, good luck with your project! As you say, we need more sensible alternative spirituality options that are distinct enough from the sinking Neopagan ship to not get sucked down with it!

Cheers,
Jeff

[alexanderthered]

Thanks for jumping in, I really appreciate your feedback!

It's tough out there for neopagans / practitioners of alternative spiritualities who are looking for a community or group to meet up with off of the internet.

After I had my spiritual experience a couple of years ago, I spent some time looking for groups to meet up with in the hopes of finding like-minded people and finding answers, and my experience was pretty negative. Tell neopagan folks that you had a bona-fide spiritual experience as a normal / not special person (something that used to be more commonplace, by the way!) and dare I say you might as well label many of these people as atheists - the idea that someone would have some kind of spiritual experience completely baffled most of them, with a few even suggesting mental illness. Combine that with the visible grimace when I lightly mentioned having a kid and wanting to involve them in some way in the future, and it was obvious that these groups were going to be a no-go.

This genuinely surprised me at the time. What kind of spiritual movement doesn't believe in spiritual experiences? At least the Christians I talked to believed me - most interpreted it as either some temptation from Satan and something to just let go / move on from, or something from the Virgin Mary (apparently the rabbit is a symbol of Mary in Catholicism) - but at least they believed me and offered help /guidance if I needed it.

As for sharing with my daughter - she's not quite big enough to get deeply involved in things yet, but as my beliefs revolve around animism, I've been sharing my animist view of the world with her and encouraging her to have a healthy relationship with the spirits of nature, with the occasional dabbling with the energies of nature / natural magic. I'm open with my beliefs and practices with her and she's been very receptive to it. My wife has been receptive and very supportive as well.

I have no idea if my project is going to actually achieve anything or catch on, but I feel that it is something vitally important for the larger culture and society. At the same time, I feel that it is a lifetime work, and so I'm not in a huge rush to get it out there (and even if I did, modern society makes it very difficult to do so if you do not intend to grift people out of their hard earned money) - I want to do it right, if that's even something that's possible to do.

But that requires a certain level of anonymity, at least at first anyway, as projects like mine tend to be a magnet for all kinds of unsavory people and things. My actual identity will inevitibly get revealed at some point, but hopefully only after things are more solid. After all, once it's out there, it's out there - you no longer have any control over it.

Otherwise, I'm very open in real life about the fact that I'm an *animist*, and that I believe in the spirits of nature. Folks are usually pretty OK with that so long as I keep it general and stay away from specifics. Of course, like most people you wouldn't know unless you asked - I dress like a normal guy, drive a normal car, etc.

I feel that there are a lot of people like me out there, who have also had some sort of spiritual experience, and they're just waiting for the right time to start making moves. As I mentioned in my reply, I really do think that there's going to be a big religious revolution in the West relatively soon, centered around new religious movements, similar to what occured in post-war Japan. The new atheist movement of the 2000s and the post-modernism of the 2010s really left people starved of enchantment and rudderless from the lack of guidance. Things are very much not working anymore and people are growing tired of it.

[jprussell]

Very much agreed that our society is hungry for some kind of spirituality. If things follow the ~30 year cycle JMG has talked about, then we'd be due around 2040 or so for a cultural shift to spirituality, but I wouldn't be surprised at all to see rumblings and early signs well before that.

I've also gotten the sense that my own vague project might have some significance, but who knows if that's delusions of grandeur. For now, I'm focusing on deepening my own practice so that I have something to offer whenever I decide it's time to share.

Oh, and for what it's worth, I don't know if I'd characterize myself as an "animist," but I think that there's a lot to recommend an animist position, and I've tried to learn from animist traditions. I haven't done the deep dive on Shinto that I want to do just yet, but I suspect that it gives a window into a spiritual view of the world that's missing from most of the big Piscean religions.

Cheers,
Jeff

[causticus]

I like to say that I'm a Platonist when it comes to Heavenly things, and an Animist when it comes to the Earthly ;)

[alexanderthered]

That 30 year cycle feels about right to me. Do you have a link to a page where JMG writes about it? I'm very interested in reading about it.

After my failed attempts at connecting with neopagan groups, I made it my personal mission to absorb everything I could about the metaphysical, so I can learn how to interpret my experience (and hopefully the experiences of others) in a productive way.

And along the way, I have found so far, at least for me, anyway, precisely as you say - that the Piscean religions were deeply lacking what many animist / folk religions (eg Shinto, taoism, Chinese folk religion, etc) had. They're definitely worth looking in to IMO if you feel the need for a new perspective or some wisdom.

That being said, I think the Heathens have been putting in some serious work in making Heathenry it's own thing separate from the big neopagan tent, and it's really paid off in spades. There are still some challenges but I think Heathenry has got a bright future ahead of it.

[jprussell]

JMG's maybe talked about this in multiple places, but the one that comes most immediately to mind is: https://www.ecosophia.net/blogs-and-essays/the-well-of-galabes/the-twilight-of-the-neopagan-era/

That lays out the idea of the 30-year cycle, but again, there might be more detail elsewhere.

Hope this helps, and if not, let me know, and I can try to find some more relevant stuff.

Cheers,
Jeff

[alexanderthered]

Thanks for the link, it'll serve as a good jumping off point. I have only been following JMG for about a year so I don't know very much about his earlier writings. I have a lot to learn :)