Open Post on the Lonliness of the Magical/Esoteric Path

[causticus]

General discussion thread for how to deal with the loneliness issues that tend to creep up as one advances further down this path. The usual etiquette of Ecosphian discussions apply here.

Comments

[lp9]

Wow, this is perfect timing. Anyone have insights on dealing with loneliness when you have a spouse who is not currently on the same path?

[causticus]

Welcome!

No unfortunately don't have experience with that, as I have been single ever since I've gotten into occultism and spirituality. The last few girlfriends I had were very materially-inclined and I expect most future ones would probably be that unless I went out of my way to look for a woman also on the path; though that might be looking for a needle in a haystack, if I'm to invoke a tired cliche.

[the_copper_dragon]

Are they of another faith? How so they feel about your beliefs? My fiance is getting into Christianity, so the best way I'm able to handle it is listen to share opinions and come to a certain understanding. It sucks because it's such a long process in certain things, and you so badly want to say something, you want to steer and control them even, but you literally cant.

[lp9]

My husband and I have been together a long time (married over 15 years, together about 20). He is nominally Christian and I have in the past few years migrated to a polytheistic view. Religion, per se, is not so much the cause of loneliness, but it's more feeling like I have to keep my more esoteric beliefs to myself. The vaccine issue is what's bringing this to the fore. While he is somewhat open and understanding when I indicate my divination is guiding me to a certain decision, I can't push it too far or it starts to cause tension. And I certainly couldn't say something like "the vaccine push might be coming from demons." It's just a step too far. So I find that I am censoring myself more and more.

[the_copper_dragon]

That's actually kinda my situation but we've only been together 4 years and got engaged Mothers day. I can talk to my fiance about a couple of things. For example, He mentioned something along the lines of not serving two masters, God or Mammon of which I told him about the pentagram and the most basic rundown I could give him with my experience and knowledge on the two orientations. We ended up having a discussion on the questionable ethics and energy of people selling stuff or hitting up others for stuff at church.

But aside from those convos I've wanted to teach him, tell him what I've learned, but of course he's a late bloomer to the christian faith and wants to read and study the Bible...nothing wrong with that, in fact I heartily encourage it, but the main concern is the culty aspect of Christianity I want to steer him away from.

[jprussell]

I'm fairly new to a lot of this stuff, and my wife is mostly in the "spiritual but not religious" camp. We've also been together a pretty long time (married almost 11 years, together ~14). She has expressed some worry that my beliefs might take me in directions she's not going, but so far I've stressed that a lot of what I'm getting out of my prayer and meditation lines up pretty squarely with "be a better husband and father", and I've been able to demonstrate that to some degree, so that's taken away some of the fear/discomfort.

As for the more esoteric stuff, she has a cultural/psychological interest in that kind of thing (she's a writer and she is interested in it as story fodder, at least), and I've had the same since long before taking it seriously, so we can at least talk about things on that level (for example, a recent show we were watching had a Neoplatonist concept, which she recognized from Emerson, and I recognized from JMG). I've mentioned the divination, but I just call my daily ~45 minutes of ritual, meditation, and divination my "meditation".

Of course, I've also had lots of practice focusing on what we do have in common and what beliefs we do share while letting differences be different, as we have fairly different political outlooks. I suppose that would be the general thought behind what has worked so far (and still pretty new at this!) - focusing on the love and life we share while letting other parts of ourselves be different, even to the point of disagreement. It's not without occasional friction, but seems to be working for us.

I wish you and your husband good luck!

[lp9]

Thank you for your thoughts. That's very good advice which I will try to implement.

I also have my 45-minute "meditation" every night. :) My husband and I have so much in common and have been on the same page for so long that this is a new situation. And when my spiritual practices take us to different political places--and so much is political these days--it makes my husband very uncomfortable.

[youngelephant]

I have a theory that whenever we feel loneliness on the path it's a subtle lack within ourselves. We want social proof for our theories and practices. I think the work is to affirm and provide this social proof internally. I think at some point the wholeness from internal self affirmation will radiate into the subtle planes and bring the socialization we used to desire so much. That's my take anyway.

[causticus]

I think you're onto something there. I have been trying to become more content with solitude and crave less mundane social interaction. Social validation has always been an insecurity I've had to content with, though thankfully I don't seem to have it nearly as bad as a lot of other people in that regard.

[lp9]

This makes a lot of sense. I am fine with actual solitude and isolation--they don't bother me much at all (probably due to life stage; I am married and have children). But I am learning that while I am ok being considered eccentric for some things, I do unfortunately crave a degree social validation.

[boccaderlupo]

I guess my question would be: is it a lack of social interaction per se? Or that the social interactions you have are desultory, as they do not pertain to spiritual matters?

I definitely get the latter, as I don't frequently have real-life conversations on those subjects. Most of my time and energy is invested in reading and contemplation in that regard, but alternately due to real-life situations I of course am compelled to have interactions that have nothing (ostensibly) spiritual to them.

My initial take on that: When in the material element, engage at the material level (so long as it does not damage "the chain").

Axé

[causticus]

I've always been the kind of person who enjoys discussing things I'm interested in with other people. That might be the source of my problem here; that I have no one really except for the other participants in this community to talk about these things with. Since my interests have shifted to things the vast majority of people have no knowledge of, much less interest in, my social interactions beyond small talk and dealing with family are quite limited.

I end up having to do what you suggest above: engaging people at the material level.

[boccaderlupo]

If you are so inclined, I would offer a prayer to the blessed gods for some solace and resolution to your situation.

There are some useful resources from Portae Lucis that touch on the solitariness of the path, but I don't know that it will necessarily provide much comfort.

Axé

[causticus]

Thank you, please do :)

[boccaderlupo]

Good vibes incoming!

Axé

[jprussell]

For me, the latter is definitely more of a challenge. I have a pretty close group of friends and have been able to see them/stay in touch with them decently despite all the craziness in the world the past year and a half. On the other hand, going from essentially an atheistic-materialist view of the world to a magico-spiritual one has done quite a number on a lot of my beliefs and what I take for granted, and a lot of that was a shared basis for understanding the world with my friends.

So, it's been less of "man, it sucks that I can't talk about spiritual matters with my friends" (though there is some of that), and a bit more of "oh, I have to be careful how I respond in this conversation because I no longer agree with something we all used to be on the same page about, and to explain why I don't agree would take rather a lot of unpacking." That can interfere a bit with rendering unto Caesar as you recommend.

[causticus]

That second paragraph well describes the impetus for me gradually unraveling myself from social media over the past six years or so. When my own evolving positions on this or that issue require too much unpacking for a typical fly-by Faceplant comment exchange, I figured the juice was not worth the squeeze. Converting a few casual "friends" (that I only converse with online) to my own way of seeing things was just not worth it and would undoubtedly create more problems than anything in the way of mutual understanding. In retrospect I found myself drifting away from an old echo chamber. As someone who has always seen himself as an independent thinker, I would often forget that many other people are socially motivated by groupthink and conformity way more than I am. I learned the groupthinkers were suddenly no longer my "friends" the moment I no longer agreed with whatever the group-mind deemed to be the correct opinions. This is one of the central dysfunctions of modernity; the age of coherent family/clan structures has long passed; now people socially organize along the lines of abstract ideologies and consumer tastes.

[jprussell]

There's a rather good analysis of the fracturing of western culture through the 20th century here: https://meaningness.com/meaningness-and-time

He goes through how traditional societies handle meaning, what modernity did to that, and then how modernity's attempt to provide a coherent, single way of making sense of the world fell apart due to the world wars and their aftermath. He comes at things from what seems to be a materialist-Buddhist take on the world, but he at least takes meaning and spirituality seriously. I found the whole website quite helpful for identifying and thinking through various spiritual issues, even if I now don't wholly agree with it.

What I found most relevant to your comment here is how he traces the development of a single "Counter Culture" to the many counter cultures of cliques to the complete atomization of today.

[causticus]

Thanks for the link, it's an interesting little piece, even if I'm not one to be all that impressed with a pseudo-Buddhistic, materialist worldview. I would probably agree that fluidity is here to stay in one form (or many!) or another, especially given we're now in the age of Aquarius. The old Piscean type of ideological absolutism will be fading out over the next few centuries until it becomes a historical footnote. The singe counter-culture was a mass reaction to 1500 years of said absolution, though like anything that defines itself by what it is NOT, as opposed to what it stands for, cannot be a long term cultural replacement. Notice how the people who most fervently embraced postmodernistic ideas have now suddenly plunged into yet another absolutist ideology, albiet one which has rules and mores that seem to shift every six months.

[the_copper_dragon]

I've said something on your post up on the other blog.

That being said I've had some experiences with trying to find some kind of belonging with others and it ended in drama and a whole ton of bs. There's some good groups out there but honestly sometimes it's just best to become a hermit of some kind and remain anonymous.

[causticus]

Yeah. I avoid most groups now, as I've had one bad experience after another. Even in the groups that aren't ideologically-infected, there still is lots of drama and overall immaturity.

[the_copper_dragon]

Indeed. Getting off social media, keeping the accounts up has been hard but it's places like these and JMG's other ecosophia blog that i find some kind of solace and break a sort of habit.

[randomactsofkarmasc]

I cannot say that I'm lonely... I've got a wonderfully supportive spouse (whose not on the path, but is willing to listen to me chatter about things) and I've never really been social. But it would be nice to have a group (online or real-life) to talk about occult things.

[causticus]

That's wonderful indeed.

A proper group/forum would be very nice. I do think JMG has established a very effective moderation policy which would certainly come handy if someone were to create such a place.

[leahkiser]

My husband has no interest whatsoever in religion, mysticism, or spirituality. He has his downstairs home office and the tv room, I have my upstairs home office and studio. Most days we only see each other at dinner until time to call it a day. Sometimes we go out for lunch or do local events, home projects, or gardening on weekends, but most weekdays and rainy/cold weekends we live separate lives now. Almost like glorified roommates - so I'm interested in seeing what others have to say. We have no animosity. We've just drifted very far apart in our interests, especially since the kids are all adults now. It's lonely, and none of my friends or acquaintances are on this path either. I'm perched here on the top of the Hermit card and have no idea how to get down. I was never good at making friends even when I was younger. Now it seems impossible. Thanks for listening.

[lp9]

No advice, but I'm sorry to hear about your situation. I imagine that the empty nest phase is already a fraught time in a marriage and then vastly diverging interests could make it even more difficult.

[leahkiser]

Thank you.

[the_copper_dragon]

At least for me, the making friends part isnt hard it's the issue of
1. Keeping them or
2. Distance.
Of course impostor syndrome certainly likes to come around to play.*sarcasm*😅

Naw...I call bs on not being good at making friends ☺. That's crazy talk in my honest opinion, lol. Best people I've met either in real life and online who said that were really cool and had a lot of interesting things to share.

Ah yes,dont know about being an empty nester other than it causes some distruption in the house for a while before things settle again.

[jprussell]

Something I've found helpful for keeping friends, even over a distance: have a regularly scheduled excuse to talk, even if it's only over the phone. Video chat can be good if it's an option. The main thing is to make it the same time every week/month/quarter/year so that folks can plan around it. Some of the excuses that have worked for me:

1) Monthly D&D game (first in-person, then moved to Zoom)
2) Monthly/Bi-Monthly whiskey tasting night (helps if you have a knowledgeable friend to run it!)
3) Weekly history book club - agree on a book, read a chapter a week, then discuss
4) Quarterly-ish zoom happy hour with friends I used to work with
5) Annual campout
6) Annual holiday party (my wife and I have thrown a New Year's Eve party most years, because it's our anniversary)

Besides the regularity, it helps to have some hard and fast rules like "the event happens if at least X people show up" or "we can reschedule if a majority of people invited all agree on a new time". Stuff comes up, folks can't always make it every time, but you might be surprised how often how many make the time.

The last year and a half have been rough on all of these, they've been all the more appreciated and helpful when we've made them work.

[causticus]

Ohhh I haven't had a good D&D session in about 6 years. Having it over Zoom seems to open up a lot of options, like using a game manager application like Roll20 to automate the more tedious aspects of tabletop play.

Too bad I've lost touch with all the friends I used to game with at one time or another.

D&D

[randomactsofkarmasc]

We had a fun online D&D group during quarantine. We used Roll20 and D&DBeyond for the actual game play, but used Discord instead of Zoom. You can have audio-chat and typing-chat (I'm sure they have real names... I don't know what they are, though) at the same time. I had great fun finding memes to post in the Discord chat when I wasn't actively hacking and slaying. (And if you set up a group is Discord, it keeps the chat, so it was a convenient way to post reminders about where you were or what you were doing and such.) (Zoom might do all that, too, though. I just haven't used it enough to know.)

Re: D&D

[causticus]

Yeah if I do this it's probably going to be on Discord. That's where I pretty much do most of my hanging out online now, besides these blogs.

[leahkiser]

Thank you. Those are good ideas.

[the_copper_dragon]

Well what i mean is that the people I make friends with are either people I eventually let go because they're too unhealthyfor me to have around or its just time to let them go silently.

I've used Discord,zoom and streamyard, but it's just not the same after a while tbh. Though i am itching to play pathfinder/DnD again and have been craving a massive bonfire for some time.

[leahkiser]

Ah, imposter syndrome. I can definitely relate to that.

To be fair, one of my kids had adhd and bounced off the wall all day as a child (and thankfully outgrew it as an adult), and one young adult with anxiety issues that has never abated, and my husband has no social life other than Facebook even before covid. Even as a grade school and high school student I never really made lots of friends, so all of us may have some sort of anti social wiring. My grandmother in her old age would never leave her house, lol. I don't think I'll ever be that bad - at least I hope not!

As for distance, I've found when you or they move away, it's not much better than trying to have a long distance love interest. It doesn't really work great. I empathize with you on that, too.

[the_copper_dragon]

Got ADD/ADHD myself though i was diagnosed as an adult. I dont think people outgrow ADHD/ADD, they just learned how to cope with certain issues they have in a healthier manner earlier in life to where it doesnt conflict with their adult lives, not as much at least.

[leahkiser]

You may be right. At 34 there are a lot more skills than, say, 10 or 12. But honestly, I think a lot of the energy got redirected to the online games they play.