Archaeology seems more useful though when zoomed in on a small geographic area, dealing with a specific time period, and featuring cultures we already have quite a bit of historical knowledge on.
That's true, but I guess I was more pointing to the broader idea that with both history and archaeology we have so very little of everything. Even in the best-known, most-important-to-later-history times and places. So, that contributes to my heuristic to be wary of "this received wisdom is completely wrong!" kind of arguments.
Who is arguing that Ancient Israel is pure fiction? I think the point of contention I'm referring to is the notion that Ancient Israel existed more or less as the Bible depicted it. Otherwise, yeah I pretty much agree with what you are saying here.
Touche! Point retracted then.
Short answer: (1) Because we know of no equivalent of an Athens, or Alexandria, or Rome for the Judeans during the Babylonian Exile. As far as we know (and we're still relying on the bible as a historical document, lol), the exiles (who may have only numbered several thousand people) were scattered across a series of towns and cities throughout Mesopotamia.
Really? I hadn't known that. I had always heard it as there was some kind of concentrated priestly community in Babylon itself. I do know that in later times (like, 1st centuries BCE/CE), "Babylonia" was a center of a number of pre-Rabbinic schools on the Torah, some of which remained prominent until the Islamic conquests. I wonder if there was any earlier antecedents besides there just being Jewish/Hebrew communities there.
(2) The theology of the Hebrew Bible (one god uber alles; all other gods are false or demons) is entirely anachronistic relative to the culture of the Ancient Near East prior to the Persian conquests. The Babylonian Exile period is the period that directly predates the Persian conquests.
To clarify, are you saying that the Persians introduced such a theology (presumably Zoroastrianism), and besides what the Bible claims, it was the first documented to be like that?
Prose writing and poetic metre are two very different animals. The latter can easily be memorized and passed down orally over the course of many generations without too many mutilations of the content. Prose OTOH needs to be written down and in concrete form, otherwise that sort of transmission is very much subject to the age-old game of telephone. Hence scribal logistics and infrastructure (standardized literary language and workable transmission + preservation methods), to circle back to the first item I listed above.
Fair point. I would be shocked, though, if the Hebrews did not have an oral poetry tradition before they became more widely literate, since just about everybody does. I've never given much thought to whether parts of the Bible (besides the Psalms and the Song of Solomon) might be poetry/have poetic elements. Assuming the "poetic tradition that later got written down" hypothesis is at least part of the story, it would be interesting to know why the Hebrews prosified everything (assuming they did), but the Greeks didn't. No idea if we could figure that out, though.
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branchandroot
(no subject)
Date: 2023-10-13 10:15 pm (UTC)That's true, but I guess I was more pointing to the broader idea that with both history and archaeology we have so very little of everything. Even in the best-known, most-important-to-later-history times and places. So, that contributes to my heuristic to be wary of "this received wisdom is completely wrong!" kind of arguments.
Who is arguing that Ancient Israel is pure fiction? I think the point of contention I'm referring to is the notion that Ancient Israel existed more or less as the Bible depicted it. Otherwise, yeah I pretty much agree with what you are saying here.
Touche! Point retracted then.
Short answer:
(1) Because we know of no equivalent of an Athens, or Alexandria, or Rome for the Judeans during the Babylonian Exile. As far as we know (and we're still relying on the bible as a historical document, lol), the exiles (who may have only numbered several thousand people) were scattered across a series of towns and cities throughout Mesopotamia.
Really? I hadn't known that. I had always heard it as there was some kind of concentrated priestly community in Babylon itself. I do know that in later times (like, 1st centuries BCE/CE), "Babylonia" was a center of a number of pre-Rabbinic schools on the Torah, some of which remained prominent until the Islamic conquests. I wonder if there was any earlier antecedents besides there just being Jewish/Hebrew communities there.
(2) The theology of the Hebrew Bible (one god uber alles; all other gods are false or demons) is entirely anachronistic relative to the culture of the Ancient Near East prior to the Persian conquests. The Babylonian Exile period is the period that directly predates the Persian conquests.
To clarify, are you saying that the Persians introduced such a theology (presumably Zoroastrianism), and besides what the Bible claims, it was the first documented to be like that?
Prose writing and poetic metre are two very different animals. The latter can easily be memorized and passed down orally over the course of many generations without too many mutilations of the content. Prose OTOH needs to be written down and in concrete form, otherwise that sort of transmission is very much subject to the age-old game of telephone. Hence scribal logistics and infrastructure (standardized literary language and workable transmission + preservation methods), to circle back to the first item I listed above.
Fair point. I would be shocked, though, if the Hebrews did not have an oral poetry tradition before they became more widely literate, since just about everybody does. I've never given much thought to whether parts of the Bible (besides the Psalms and the Song of Solomon) might be poetry/have poetic elements. Assuming the "poetic tradition that later got written down" hypothesis is at least part of the story, it would be interesting to know why the Hebrews prosified everything (assuming they did), but the Greeks didn't. No idea if we could figure that out, though.